What if Snape had never loved Lily Potter

of quail »Thu 07 Jun, 2007 12:59

Hi Guys,

While surfing the internet I found a thesis that supports this theory.
I have to say I think this is totally unlikely and I am really dreading it ... if that really applies, here is this theory that I found while surfing it does not come from me, I would like to emphasize it again:


The following questions formed a starting point for me:

- Why is Snape's "Worst Memory", of all things, his worst?
- Why did he have to hide her from Harry?
- Why did Sirius want to kill Snape?
- During what difficult time in his life did Lily help Remus?
- Who did Florence kiss behind the greenhouses and why does Dumbledore make the memory of this event so sad?
- Why does Dumbledore seem to seriously believe that Snape had returned to him because he felt such regret over his (unwitting) betrayal of the Potters?
- Why does Snape hate Harry so disproportionately and still try to protect him or is he really worried about him?

JKR owes us an answer to all of these questions; If you don't want to find an FAQ in Book 7, in which all the remaining storylines are briefly dealt with, then there must be some connection. I have now tried to make it.

It is difficult to say where and how it all began; but maybe it was actually the case that both Severus and Lily grew up in Spinner’s End and knew each other from home, so to speak. This is supported by two scenes in the HP books:

One can be found in Book 5, on page 42:

"And what the hell are Dementors?"
"They guard Azkaban, the wizard's prison," said Aunt Petunia.
Two seconds of booming silence followed these words, then Aunt Petunia clapped her hand over her mouth as if she had escaped a hideous swear word. [...]
Aunt Petunia seemed absolutely appalled by herself. She glanced at Uncle Vernon in fearful apology, then dropped her hand a little and bared her horse's teeth.
"I heard - that bad boy - years ago - how he - told her - about it," she said intermittently.
"If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you call them by name?" Harry said aloud, but Aunt Petunia ignored him. She seemed terribly confused.

We don't know about this bad boy - but he's definitely not James! First of all, JKR comes across it all by itself with the book text (why does she let Harry ask and Petunia block it?), Then she said the following in an interview:

David Molds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?
JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.
Is that true?
JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.

Who do you think Petunia would consider "a bad boy"? And what was he doing at home with the Evans family - how else could Petunia have overheard this conversation? Lily didn't seem to know anything about the Dementors at the time, which in turn suggests that the dialogue between the two must have taken place when they were still quite young. The reference to Book 7 is also interesting, as we learned from JKR that the important things about Lily come to light in Books 5 and 7.
Certainly there are some arguments in favor of Severus Snape as an informant about the Dementors. First there is the fact that he is a half-breed. With a Muggle father, he could easily have grown up in a Muggle environment and thus have come without any major detours such as an invitation to the Evans family home on vacation. Maybe he was just a neighborhood boy whom Lily saw regularly on vacation - even if there doesn't seem to have been any contact between the two at school.

Another sequence that may show Lily and Severus together as children is the third of Snape's mini-memories Harry sees in Book 5 on page 695:

"... a girl laughed when a skinny boy tried to mount a bucking broom."

Why does JKR explicitly mention the presence of a girl here? In general, I am in favor of the fact that in books - and especially the HP books - very rarely a comment is made that does not make sense. In my opinion, the girl is not a decorative accessory, but a concrete reference to a female person in Snape's life who could possibly become important!

As I have shown here, it is quite possible that Lily and Snape share childhood memories. It is more or less clear to me that this friendship couldn't exist at school. Here we finally have the Romeo and Juliet effect of the Gryffindor and Slytherin houses, which JKR has surprisingly not used up to now. Snape, who probably had a bad stand in his own house anyway, would never have wanted to be seen with the Mudblood Evans. Lily herself didn’t think it was particularly important to stroll around the schoolyard with the eccentric Severus Snape. Perhaps (or even quite likely) they met secretly on the school grounds anyway - and this is where another scene, not yet explained in detail, comes into play, which can be found in Book 4 on page 626:

"Curiosity is not a sin," he [Dumbledore] said. "But we should exercise caution ... yes, indeed ..."
His brow furrowed, he stirred the thoughts in the bowl a little with the tip of his wand. It wasn't long before a figure rose from it, that of a plump, sullen-looking girl about sixteen. With her feet still in the shell, she slowly began to turn. She took no notice of Harry or Professor Dumbledore. Now she spoke, and her voice echoed around the room like the Snapes, as if it had come from the depths of a stone basin. "He bewitched me, Professor Dumbledore, and I just wanted to annoy him a little, sir, I just said I saw him snogging with Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday ..."
"But why, Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking up at the girl who was turning silently, "why did you have to sneak after him at all?"

We have two people here whose identity we cannot pinpoint; however, we learn the following:

- They met to make out behind the greenhouses and apparently didn't want to be seen - why not?
- The boy was so taken aback by Bertha's discovery of his secret that he threw a curse on her neck
- The girl's name was Florence

The last point speaks clearly against Lily, of course. But wait! What do we know about Bertha Jorkins? She was a gossip, not particularly intelligent, and eerily absent-minded. In addition, she is apparently in Dumbledore's office when she tells this story - still shocked and torn by the curse that has just hit her. So did she mix up the names and Lily became Florence? Both names have a direct connection to the plant world - so a mistake would not be illogical. In addition, we shouldn't completely rule out that Florence was Lily's full name, even if this seems somewhat improbable.
A dramaturgical reason for equating Florence with Lily would be the fact that JKR remains just a book, so it would not do her well to introduce other unknown characters in important roles. The already known characters already raise so many questions that you could fill entire novels just by answering them.
The curse that Bertha Jorkins met so suddenly speaks for Snape in the role of the boy; after all that we have learned so far about the young Severus, this reaction fits like a fist in the eye, so to speak.
The secret of the meeting would also be reinforced by the assumption that it was Snape and Lily. After all, the two got older, what was once a childhood friendship, could well have become their first love over the years. For Bertha, the gossip, such a romance would have been ideal. The whimsical Slytherin Severus Snape and the Gryffindor beauty Lily Evans! Wouldn't that be a good story? No wonder she followed up on Snape after suspicion (however)!

One point that speaks against Lily and Snape as a kissing couple, I would still like to know. Also in Volume 4, Sirius makes the following remark to Harry:

"Listen, I knew Bertha Jorkins," Sirius said grimly, "she was with us at Hogwarts at the time, a couple of classes above me and your dad. And she was just plain stupid. Terribly curious, but no trace of brains. Not a good mix, Harry. I would say it would be easy to trap them. "

This “a couple of classes” can mean a lot. For my theory to work, she would have to have seen the kiss in the 5th year of the Marauders; if she herself was in seventh at the time, that works out fine. However, Harry notes that she appears to be around 16 in the Pensieve scene - so old (or a year older) than Snape and Lily themselves. Well, of course, he may have been wrong and she may have already been 17, but the mention makes me concrete numbers a bit puzzling.

An argument for Bertha, Severus and Lily as the three people behind the greenhouse is contained in Sirius’s statement: Why else should it be important that she was at Hogwarts with the marauders?

At this point, let's just assume that Snape had kissed Lily behind the greenhouses and Bertha saw it. Why does this make Dumbledore so sad? Perhaps because it represented the beginning of a little tragedy - with more far-reaching consequences than Dumbledore himself could ever have guessed.

We know that Bertha confronted the boy she was watching with what she saw and who then put a curse on her neck. When was it? What is so tragic about this story if nobody ever found out about it?

The answer could be "Worst Memory"; we don't know what happened after James Snape threatened to take off his pants. There were tons of spectators in this scene - maybe Bertha was one of them. As she said herself, she wanted to annoy them a little. What if she let go of the remark with the kiss behind the greenhouses not in front of Snape in a dark corridor, but in front of the assembled school - while Severus himself was hanging upside down in the air.

I can literally see it in front of me:

Unaware of the scope of her remark, Bertha teases Snape by saying that she had seen him with Lily behind the greenhouse (she may make this remark in the context of the previous exchange of blows in which Lily was also involved; but perhaps the thing with the Underpants her throw-in). James then drops Snape in shock, Snape himself reaches for his wand and Bertha is hit by a curse before she even knew what happened to her. Probably the whole thing went before the director after that.

In any case, James must have been really disappointed, sad and angry. Lily Evans, his great love, is making out with his archenemy Severus Snape! And Sirius? Sirius sees his friend's suffering and dilemma and decides to act. Especially in Book 3 it becomes quite clear that he would have done anything for James; he was the best friend anyone could ever ask for. He would never have stood idly by as James was, so to speak, snatched the beloved from under the nose.

So he works out a plan all by himself, which James should better not find out about himself: He wants to punish Severus Snape for his iniquity. And how does he do it? He lets him know how to get past the Whomping Willow. He's probably not giving him this information in person, but it is undisputed that he was behind it. Why Snape followed up with Remus remains open. Maybe he actually believed he could finally get the marauders expelled from school, but maybe it was some kind of test of courage. In any case, he meets Lupine in the form of a wolf - and is saved by James at the last minute. How James found out about the plan remains to be seen; maybe Sirius gave himself away in the end.
The shame for Snape must have been almost infinite; as well as Lupin's suffering and remorse. Dumbledore faces a tough decision. We know he told Snape to be silent about Remus’s handicap; there could be a connection here with the curse on Bertha. Sirius could have been referred to the school about this action, possibly the same applies to Snape; let's just suppose he used the Sectumsempra. So Dumbledore had some leverage in hand, so to speak. Snape couldn't help but shut up.

But what happened now between him and Lily? It was probably all over after that. Too much had happened, Snape would never have admitted his love, Lily might not have either. After Bertha had babbled, everything got too complicated. Perhaps the most likely solution is that Snape ended everything because he couldn't stand the shame. If Lily had really loved him, the following time would have been quite difficult for her - as well as for Remus Lupine. In film 3 he describes a time when he could no longer believe in the good in himself and no other friends were at his side. I would find this a very fitting description of how he felt after he almost became a murderer - through the fault of his own friend. This phase of his life must have been incredibly difficult for Lupine. Lily was there for him during this time - could there be a more suitable solution? On the relationship between Remus and Lily, JKR said the following:

Lupine was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her.

That suits Lupine, especially considering that because of his "disability" he appears to be afraid of relationships. A possible romantic rapprochement between the two is probably excluded, even if Lupine and Lily may have talked about very personal things in view of the situation. That would also explain why Remus doesn't seem to think so badly of Snape as many others. On page 335 of Book 6, he says to Harry:

Quote: "I don't like Severus, but I don't dislike him either."

So maybe he really does have knowledge that the others don't have about Snape. That this knowledge could come from Lily or is related to her is possibly implied on p. 621:

"And he didn't think in the slightest of my mother, either," said Harry, "because she was of Muggle descent ... 'Mudblood' he called her ..."

Nobody asked how he knew.

Here we have it in black and white: Nobody - not even Lupine, who was actively involved in the conversation beforehand, reacts to Harry's allusion to Snape and Lily. Once again, JKR broke off a bit abruptly at a point where this question could finally be clarified. Why actually? Maybe because there really is more to it than we'd like to believe.

It would be interesting for me to know what happened to Lily and Snape. Out of sight, out of mind No, that makes the entire storyline pointless. Maybe Snape never stopped loving Lily; but would a Slytherin like Snape love without love? Just give without taking? Desperately clinging to something that will never be returned?
Lily married James. That’s a fact. The two started dating from the 7th grade, married after graduation and had a child. On her wedding day, Lily floated with happiness, the photos Harry has of her in the film show a laughing, happy couple. So no place for Severus Snape. But then what is the point of a romance between Snape and Lily? A crush that has never stopped for either of them? That is hard - in my opinion even a little cruel and morally badly thought. After all, James is the handsome, popular, rich, athletic guy - what chance would the measly, not very sympathetic Severus Snape have?

Nevertheless - at HP the right, the tragic, the phenomenally great romance is still missing. The one with the many problems, the obstacles à la Romeo and Juliet - the house system invites you to such a plot! So what if everything was a little different? There are a few passages in HP that make me seriously doubt the James-Lily marriage. At one point, Mrs. Weasley speaks of numerous couples who, during Voldemort's first ascent, decided to marry prematurely, as if there was no tomorrow. Why such a statement?
Then there is this photo of the members of the Order of the Phoenix. The great James-Lily couple is divided; Peter sits between them. Coincidence or Symbol?
It's all just speculation, but what if ...?
If there was one factor in the Potters' marriage that didn't fit in at all with the flawless ideal Harry seems to have of his parents. I know the following sounds very daring, but what if Lily still felt something for her childhood friend? The less beautiful, less successful, less popular Severus Snape ...

I'm not saying she didn't love James, but something about this couple pisses me off. The two very best, most beloved, very intelligent students of their year become a couple and get married. Otherwise, is that JKR's style? The style of the JKR who created characters like Neville Longbottom and Luna Lovegood and who also seems to have a special preference for outsiders? Somehow something doesn't fit my taste ... I can't quite explain it, maybe it's something that just seems a little inconsistent to me personally.

There are many reasons that speak against Snape as a partner: He is poor, ugly, not exactly easy to get - but aren't there many characters romantically involved in novels? I repeat myself, but despite all the opportunities, JKR has never had a really interesting romance. Perhaps because she had planned a big, overshadowing love story from the start - enough to carry 7 entire books.

Snape, who loved Lily Evans, who married James Potter. James Potter, his archenemy. Snape, who sold his soul to the devil. Lily, who had a child from Potter. Snape, who unknowingly set the Dark Lord on the two of them. The spiral turns - until the catastrophe!
I think Dumbledore is quite believable when he says Snape came to him after Voldemort applied the prophecy to the Potters. If he had actually loved Lily, then that step would be explained. As much as he would have loved to see James Potter dead, he would never have wanted Lily to die.

It's just a logical step from Lily's death to Snape's hatred of Harry. Lily died to protect her son. Without Harry, James Potter's son, she would still be alive. That's what Snape can't forgive him. To me, that's a plausible rationale for Snape's hatred - far more plausible than a teenage feud at some point in school. Snape didn't envy James his Quidditch skills or his good grades - he envied Lily! Lily, whom he loved and who might not be indifferent to her either.

The whole thing would get a particularly tragic note if Snape was actually present in Godric’s Hollow. How does Dumbledore know that Harry is only alive because Lily gave her life for him? There must have been an eyewitness - an eyewitness on Dumbledore's side. What if Snape saw Lily die? For a child who, in his eyes, should never have existed?

Can you blame him for hating this child? Still, he has to acknowledge that Harry is Lily's son. When Harry comes to Hogwarts, Snape has to learn to live with seeing Lily Evans eyes on James Potter's son's face every day.
Yes, he treats Harry terribly, but he doesn't want to see him die. In the films in particular, this becomes more than clear to me. He probably couldn't forgive himself for having Lily's son on his conscience as well. Just like his mother, for whose death, in the case of my theory, he undoubtedly blames himself.

HP is all about love. Love that is more powerful than any kind of magic. So far the love between mother and child has played a major role - it is time to show that there are other types of love as well. And we already know that love is a destructive force - Merope and Tom Riddle are a cautionary example. Still, I don't think Lily and Snape will appear as parallel characters to the two; Snape wouldn't love selflessly and unrequitedly. I will stick with it.

It is love that Voldemort will ultimately defeat. Love Voldemort doesn't know If love is indeed what drives Snape, it is easy to explain how he duped the Dark Lord. Because if there is one thing mentioned more than once in HP, it is this: Voldemort underestimates love because he cannot understand it.

Source: A certain user in the I-net who calls herself Herrin_des_Schweige.


But I have to say right away that I consider several theories to be absolutely rebuttable, especially the scene with Bertha Jokins and this Florence and the scene in Snape's thoughts that Harry would have recognized his mother at first glance, because Lily is missing the red hair .
What do you think?


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